Good As You

Phil "15 Reasons Same Sex Relationships are Wrong and Hurt Society" Magnan? http://www.bfamilyadvocates.com/homosexuality.htm You may find him respectful, I think he's hateful filth.

Love ya, Jeremy!

John

John: Well, let me clarify. Only respectful in terms of tone and personal interaction. :-)

Phil's comment about one's first time having sexual relations "imprinting" a "sexual identity" is absurd speculation. I myself knew I was gay from a young age and fought it, refraining from sex until I was 20. My first time? With a woman, not a man. Sexual orientation involves far more than the physical aspects of 'doing the deed' but with emotions, attractions, etc. that come into play long before the act does. I can appreciate a woman's beauty and enjoy their company, but never have I experienced an real attraction for them or had any true desire to be romantically involved with them. No, for myself it was with men. Sure I wanted the wife and kids with the house in suburbia, but that was a desire for what society taught as the norm not what my heart really wanted because I couldn't have romantic feelings or sexual desires for that wife.

Btw, it should be no surprise that Phil's website relies heavily upon the discredited 'work' of Paul Cameron. I seem to recall something in the Scriptures about "bearing false witness", Phil...

Well said, John. My own experience is very similar.

I think it is very likely that the majority of gay people's first sexual experience is with someone of the OPPOSITE sex. The theory that Phil presents is absurd.

What about men who have NEVER had sex with someone of the same sex but come out in their sixties saying that they ALWAYS knew they were gay even though they were married with a house full of children?

John, thanks for the link. It shows just how disgusting this man is. He comes here acting so kind and compassionate but his website shows his true colors of fear, hate and homophobia.

I would just as soon that Jeremy left Phil's little "love letters" off of his site.

We shouldn't be giving this jerk a platform. It's bad enough that these homophobic propagandists have access to the internet.

Zeke: Thankfully, for the sake of my partner's annual Valentine's card, what I have provided above is far from my idea of a love letter. What it is a point/counterpoint discussion, and I's fairly comfortable in thinking that my points hold far more water than Mr. Magnan's.

If someone writes me with this sort of thing, I'm going to respond -- it's sort what I do. And if I am going to go to the trouble of writing such a lengthy response, I am going to turn it into a "teachable moment" for more than just one person!! There is a big difference between giving folks a platform, and using their words as an opportunity to point out the folly in typical anti-gay/"ex-gay" arguments. The latter is what G-A-Y is ALL ABOUT!

I expect Mr. Magnan knows his Bible quite well. I wonder if he's ever read it with an eye toward understanding how even the Bible's commandments, laws, and rules changed over time, especially in the areas of sexual mores.

I would recommend he read "Homosexuality and The Bible" by Reverend Walter Wink, a pamphlet published by Fellowship Publications (www.forusa.org). Rev. Wink points out that the Bible's guidance in the area of sexual relations changed, and changed, and changed again. Where it was once lawful to engage in sex with slaves, in polygamy, and in concubinage, where it was lawful to treat women as property, and where once it was unlawful to be celibate or to name sexual organs -- well, he can see for himself how things have changed. And changed. The Bible is inconsistent with itself and yet each book is consistent with the times for which that book was written. Because we do not have a book written for our times, and because the Bible changed over time, we must use the more universal Biblical law to guide us: Love. And there is nothing to stop two men, or two women, from forming the loving, spiritual, even monogamous (if that's what they both want) relationship Mr. Magnan values so highly. It happens all the time.

In addition, if Mr. Magnan would trouble to acquaint himself with some of the scientific research of the past five years, he would not be posing ridiculous theories about one's initial encounter dictating ANYTHING other than the date one lost one's virginity, whatever that means.

He thanks you for getting his brain going. I say it's not going nearly enough yet. I hope he tries again.

Jeremy,

Thanks for your take on the issues we face today and for being able to intelligently respond to those like Phil Magnon.

I do not know if I would call myself an ex-ex-gay, but I definitely knew I was gay from my very early teens. Growing up in a large Mormon family, I knew I would not be able to come out, so I learned to hide my true self and did my best to fit my life into the “role” I had been taught to want. I never acted on my feelings and worked with my clergy and the therapists they sent me to in order to overcome my feelings. I had to believe that if I would only do what God wanted, he would give me happiness and a “normal” life. After trying to commit suicide in college from the dissonance in my life, I made a decision and got married, hoping that I would at last be fixed by taking this important step. I was married for 12 years, and after confessing I was homosexual to my wife, continued with additional therapists to change my orientation. At least I was never promised I could change, but rather increase my attractions to my wife. Sadly, that never happened and while trying to have a child through IVF, realized that was not the answer either and children would only exacerbate the issues we faced. I finally got a divorce and told my family I was gay. I expected the worse, but while my family will never be happy about my decision, they have come to accept me and my new partner.

I understand the need for some to become ex-gay or to struggle with their sexuality as I did. I do not believe people can change their orientation, but I do believe that some can suppress it to live the life they believe will bring them the happiness they desire. For me, it was terrifying to finally say the words to my family and to leave the life I had always been taught to want for something you have been taught to abhor. I finally realized that God would not create me and then expect me to remain unhappy or unfulfilled in this life. I can only speak for myself when I say how happy I have been and how much more fulfilled my life is now. It was hard to realize how much energy was wasted hiding and denying who I was. I have only been out for less than 2 years, but I am amazed at how much my life has changed for the better.

I also understand the need for some ex-gays to therefore believe that all gays should change to justify their own beliefs and sacrifices. I do not agree, but I understand how hard it was for me. When I was trying so hard to live a “straight” life, I would avoid any gay men I knew, because I knew it would be too hard for me to be around them. In the end, I am glad for my choice, and my only regret was not having the courage to believe in myself and my feelings.

"...leave no possibility that a person could leave [homosexuality] and actually be happy and whole..."

Phil. Before you complain about this, maybe you would like to try to entertain the thought it might be possible perhaps for a person to - NOT - leave homosexuality and actually be happy and whole.

Like our Jeremy, for instance, who wastes no opportunity to remind us how DELIRIOUSLY happy he and his boyfriend are together (not that we're jealous or anything).

"Misery loves company"? Oh please. Stop acting like being gay comes with some kind of unhappiness guarantee. There was a reason the GAY community decided to call itself GAY. I think maybe they were trying to make a point with that.

You know what's an almost-guaranteed road to unhappiness? To get married to a woman when you're actually gay. Maybe you could talk to the guys in the bars and parks that you mention, I'm sure there's some of them that could tell you ALL ABOUT THAT.

Oh, and regarding the "sermon" John posted a link to: BINGO!
http://66.197.210.102/~witchcra/stuff/AntiGayBingo.gif

To Phil,

Your comments about first time experiences making an impact are an interesting idea. However, it does not seem to hold up to the evidence. And it seems to be predicated on two false premises.

First, you assume that most or all gay people become so through imprinting - a variation of the "recruitment" argument. Yet as others expressed, there are few - if any - real life examples of persons who acquired same-sex attraction as a result of same-sex activity.

In a large number of cases, gay persons had their first sexual experience with a person of the opposite sex. Although this is changing, young people were pressured (and often still are) to identify as heterosexual and peer pressure often mandated opposite-sex activity. Yet those persons were not "imprinted" to heterosexuality.

Another common situation is that gay persons do not engage in opposite sex activity but are fully aware of their orientation before engaging in sex at all. With the growth of support organizations for youth, this is becoming more common. Gay kids are resisting pressure to act out heterosexually and instead are "waiting for Mr. Right" before becoming sexually active at all.

Your second assumption is that gay persons have huge numbers of sexual partners. What this has to do with imprinting or sexual orientation, I have no idea. However, it is nothing more that your own personal bias and does not appear to be based in fact.

While it does appear that gay men have more partners within a given time period than their heterosexual counterparts, the 2005 study by the CDC showed that this variance was not large. Just as there are those heterosexuals (Wilt Chamberline, for example) who have a large number of sex partners, there are also gay persons who do the same. But the averages are not in the 50's for either gay or straight.

I agree with you when you say, " I believe that the sexual relationship is not only physical, but spiritual in nature; that is why this issue of orientation must also address what is really happening when we have sexual relations with people."

And that is probably why gay people are so very serious about acquiring marriage abilities. And even when such rights are forbidden by law, quite often same-sex couples will still meet before God and man in the presense of their clergy, family, and friends and pledge their life-long devotion. Because when you have found the man that God has placed in your life, it goes far beyond sex and becomes life-completing.

And that is the part that anti-gays get wrong. They get all caught up in body parts and what fits where and when. They miss out on the love, spiritual connection, devotion, and all the other things that make their own relationships blessed are also present. Their sad obsession on sex blinds them to God's presence and the beauty of his creation.

Jeremy,

Since Phil quotes Paul Cameron (point 5 in his 15 reasons), ask him if he also share's Cameron's admiration for the Rudolf Hoss, the Commandant of Auschwitz? Does he support Cameron's "plausable idea" about the extermination of gay people?

Robin: I wonder if he's ever read it with an eye toward understanding how even the Bible's commandments, laws, and rules changed over time, especially in the areas of sexual mores.

Indeed. Take the subject of polygamy, for example. We find it throughout the Old Testament and it was very common, not unlawful at all. Jesus never spoke about it, indeed there is nothing at all anywhere in the Bible to prove that polygamy is morally evil. However today we find just about all Christians and Jews vehemently condemning the practice. Now I'm not making a claim for the supposed virtues of polygamy, but clearly something that was once approved of in Scripture fell out of favor later on to where today it is considered to be a sin. Oh and for anyone who wishes to give me prooftexts that supposedly show where the NT does condemn polygamy, Mark 10:11-12 is silent about having multiple spouses and the context of this verse could be applied in a polygamous marriage, while Romans 7:3 & 1 Corinthians 7:39 say nothing about men having more than one wife. Given the status of women at the time a prohibition against their having more than one husband is understandable.

Todd: I have only been out for less than 2 years, but I am amazed at how much my life has changed for the better.

I understand, Todd. While I didn't attend formal ex-gay 'therapy' (costs lots of money) I did read their literature and wasted many years hiding the fact that I'm gay. Let's just say that Catholicism gives Judaism a run when it comes to guilt. I've been out roughly for 2 years as well and while the light is bright outside that closet, it's been better than ever before. My family shocked the heck out of me with their love and support.

According to CrossWalk, our very good buddy Phil has some opinions on California applying its domestic partnership laws:

California's decision to allow overnight visits for registered domestic partners of prison inmates has drawn praise from homosexual advocacy groups as furthering "marriage equality," but conservative pro-family activists say the state is "sponsoring immorality."

"California is continuing to tear down the fabric of godly marriage by encouraging and recognizing domestic partners whose lifestyles are immoral," Phil Magnan, director of Biblical Family Advocates, said in a statement Tuesday.

Ah, yes. Homosexual criminals should not challenge the marriage of godly criminals by having the same rules apply to them. The homosexual criminals are living immoral lifestyles, unlike the godly lifestyles of the hetero criminals.

Ummmm, yeah, that's logical. But why should I expect better from a man who aparantly thinks orientation is imprinted.